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  • #31
    Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

    Originally posted by Beta
    The better the rating -> the higher the price -> the shorter the lifespan.

    This seems to be the way.

    I`ve started recommending people to buy cheap and expect it to fail, at least you haven`t spent a lot.
    Do you not mean, the cheaper the product (as a general rule) the shorter the lifespan and, the poorer the performance?

    Cheap appliances tend to accomplish both, not last and not perform. In my 20 odd years in this business the biggest volume of complaints we get about poor performance is on the cheap tat that's out there as they quite simply cannot make silk out a sow's ear for tuppence.

    Even if you do hold with the argument that it's cheaper to through stuff out after a couple of years and buy more (which is crazy to me) you are buying stuff that really doesn't work very well as a general rule.

    K.
    "Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge" Don Henley

    Cheap appliance spare parts in our store ? Find an appliance repair company here

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    • #32
      Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

      I too agree with the comments made previously.

      I have also been a victim of this, in 2005 I bought a Hotpoint (Indeshyte) WF530T in a lovley almond colour, by 2006 its control board started playing up, spinning before all the rinse water was fully pumped out, causing sudslocking of biblical proportions! The it seemed to correct its self, then in late 2006 its computer went again, this time instead of tumbling correctly it just did very short tumbles with eons for pauses in between. So in the end I rang Hotpoint, they were patronising from the off, they wanted nearly 100 to fix this pile of junk, I could see this 100 becoming a regular expense. The Hotpoint cost me 500 to buy in the first place, enough had to be enough, 5 service calls and I would have made 1000.

      After all this I replaced the machine with a 15 year old Bosch WFF2000 and haven't looked back since, it washes and rinses properly. I need proper rinsing as I have servere skin complaints and am allergic to every detergent know to man! Incedentally I use Persil biological powder and enjoy excellent results. I got the Bosch from a reconditioners for 145 and they included a free Y adaptor and hoses and delivered it too.

      My Mum and Dad have a 9 year old IAR Siltal, at 8 years old it had a pump and just 3 weeks ago had new bearings, brushes and a belt. However this machine did 20-25 loads a week for the first 4 years of its life and has done 12-20 ever since. Its and excellent machine, built very well and a joy to repair and work on. Recently I saw some of IAR Siltals new offerings sold under CDA and they are pants and have sealled tanks, they have gone from producing machines like that of my parents to making just about Indesit quality appliances in just 9 years. its disgusting.

      I have a White Knight 84AW tumble drier, not bought for its A class rubbish, but because I wanted a sensordry vented, so it fit the bill. Its just got to 3 years and 2 months old and is already on the way out. But in the loft I have a 32 year old TI Jackson compact (Electra) drier which I plan to restore this summer, its in perfect working order and has never had any spare parts. When the white Knight finally gives out I will probably buy a Miele, but if it breaks down I am bankrupt! It should last a 4 loads a week though.

      I am disgusted beyond words when I hear all this eco green rubbish when we have every mortal thing in our homes as throwaway items, landfill is beyond a joke, no wonder we are being made to recycle (which I am not against) so much! Its thanks to this eco band wagon we now have a plethora of bad performing, cheap, shoddy and short lifespanned appliances. Also not one modern washing machine will rinse properly due to stupid low water usage, so saving water, although if it affects the machines performance isn't really a saving, will make up for our throw away society, I think not.

      All a new wahing machine is about is appearance, not substance, full of cycles you don't need and options you won't use, people like up to the minute technology to show off to their friends don't they and do not want an old fashioned looking washing machine in a modern kitchen.

      Its not the maunufacterers at fault its the public. people want cheaper and cheaper appliances, well here we go we have it, also we have caused an environmental disaster, and constant hassle of repairs and replacements. Very very few people take buying a washing machine seriously these days, as they are taken for granted. Manufactuerers pander to what people want................and have!

      Oliver.
      " I'm not having less than a Miele" my Mum, December 2010! As agreed by me, my fiancee (quickwash) and my Dad.........as we have two Miele Commercial Little Giants.......and a Miele Condenser dryer! Not to mention the Miele Dishwasher and vented dryer to come in due course!!

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      • #33
        Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

        in answer to kwatt.

        Yes and no to your answer.

        The quality of the majority of appliances now is atrocious, a certain brand of cheap askoll style drain pump can hardly last 6 months, modules that cannot last 5 years, modules that you have no choice but to buy unprogrammed. I`m not going on, there`s a book in it at least.

        You can go and buy a
        Hotpoint for 350 upwards,
        Zanussi 350 upwards,
        etc . . .
        They will last for 3-5 years.

        OR

        you can go and buy a Haus 1000rpm washer from argos for 170.00, it will last around 4-5 years.

        The long and the short . . . they dont last. So, what is the point spending the 350 when you can spend 170.

        The ONLY exception (so far) is Bosch. I am a bit dubious about their spanish made plastic fantastic models, they were cheap a while ago.

        This is my humble opinion.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

          Originally posted by Beta
          This is my humble opinion.
          Humble indeed and quite clearly from that you are not taking on board what the experts in the business are telling you. But that is your choice and likely as not you will be the loser...sorry.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

            Hi Beta,

            Some answers below.

            Originally posted by Beta
            you can go and buy a Haus 1000rpm washer from argos for 170.00, it will last around 4-5 years.
            And the service arrangements for these are... ???

            So far as I can see that's a Midea washer from China which uses a cheap Chinese copy of the Askoll drain pump you mention, as an example, have a UK landed cost of about 60 or so and are not exactly shining beacons of engineering excellence.

            I'd expect two years out one, maybe, in normal family use.

            Originally posted by Beta
            The long and the short . . . they dont last. So, what is the point spending the 350 when you can spend 170.
            Yes, the average lifespan is dropping but because the price point is and, has done for two decades or more in real terms.

            Over 80% of washing machines sold in the UK cost under 500.

            Over 40% cost under 300.

            Tracked with inflation from the mid-seventies, the base price to achieve "like for like" in terms of quality is a minimum of 800.

            If you spend the money buying decent kit then it will last but, if you are not prepared to do that then, no, it won't.

            The fact of it is, as demonstrated by the market data, most people haven't a clue what they're buying and expect way too much for the money. A sub-300 washer is not going to last long in normal family use. So, the lifespan average tumbles as that's the bulk of the market.

            But just think about it.

            Take off the VAT, the shipping, the margins and work out just how much one of those machines actually costs. The answer is, not a lot.

            Because I know a lot about this I can tell you that, if the machine costs under 200 then the base cost is less than 100. Just what do you expect for 100?

            Two pairs of jeans from Next cost more than that!!

            Originally posted by Beta
            The ONLY exception (so far) is Bosch. I am a bit dubious about their spanish made plastic fantastic models, they were cheap a while ago.
            They're okay mid-range machines, one of the better ones in the mid market but I's still only anticipate 4-7 years out one at best depending on the level of use it gets.

            And, that's the absolutely key point, it depends on how much use you give them to determine how long they will last. And, since most manufacturers, all bar ISE if I'm not mistaken, do not give you any sort of indication of the information required to work this out, then, I'm afraid it's guesswork. Even if all the manufacturers do actually know this or at least have an idea.

            K.
            "Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge" Don Henley

            Cheap appliance spare parts in our store ? Find an appliance repair company here

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

              Hi all,

              I have recently bought an ise10 (a proper washing machine) which is built like a tank and has a 10 year guarantee. Yes it cost 899.99 but if it only last 10 years that is 1.73 a week and in all probability it should last a lot, lot longer!! (I intend to keep posting for my years about my ise10!) I have had a few machines in my time but this one is far superior, in both washing and spinning. It has a 7 rinse option, option for a higher water level and is modern looking (unlike a certain other 'high end' make!). Its basically brilliant! Look at the info on the ise website. A sensible group of people with some very sound ideas and excellent products.

              When i think back a few years most families could not afford a washing machine but nowadays everyone expects to own one. In all honesty how can these 'cheapies' be any good. If you look at wages, inflation etc then 900 for a washing machine is relative, it would have to be that price to be decent i think. Older machines lasted longer because they were built better (like my ise10), so sit n ponder. IMO if anyone does more than 1 or 2 loads a week then they shouldnt even consider a cheap machine. Obviously there are some who just couldnt afford a quality washer but for people who can but choose not to then, well.... Anyhow these throwaway items are another 'blot' on the enviroment which cant be good.

              Sorry rambled on a bit there :rolls:

              quickwash lug:

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

                Originally posted by Higher-water-level
                My Mum and Dad have a 9 year old IAR Siltal, at 8 years old it had a pump and just 3 weeks ago had new bearings, brushes and a belt. However this machine did 20-25 loads a week for the first 4 years of its life and has done 12-20 ever since. Its and excellent machine, built very well and a joy to repair and work on. Recently I saw some of IAR Siltals new offerings sold under CDA and they are pants and have sealled tanks, they have gone from producing machines like that of my parents to making just about Indesit quality appliances in just 9 years. its disgusting.
                Ho Hum.

                My Mum and Dads Siltal is on its last legs. It needs near 800 worth of parts. So they go enquiring about a new machine and they wanted a Miele (they have a Miele dryer) and they found one with a 10 year parts and labour guarantee, so she called Miele to ask if it would cover her usage of 20 loads a week, after a silence they said no........... :rolls:

                So off to look at commercial machines, IPSO, JLA, Schulthess and numerous others. In the end she really wanted an IPSO, but there wasn't one that would go in the kitchen without removing the work top.

                In the end she has chosen a Miele Little Giant PW6065 Plus (at over 3000) in stainless steel to match the dryer, the only downside is it will stick out 4", but as it is tested for 30,000 cycles at her useage it will last for at least 30 years, the dealler will supply parts so I can repair it for her and in essence this is the last machine my parents will ever buy!

                Clever bit is I have specced the machine for them, it is being reprogrammed for additional rinses on all programmes and ALL rinses to be carried out 1/3 up the door regardless of load and it is having a few extra programmes added to suit her needs, the whole experience has been a pleasure from start to finish.

                It will be coming in a day or two.

                Sounds expensive but undernath it really is a bargain!

                My WFF2000 is still going strong though......... :wink:
                Oliver.
                " I'm not having less than a Miele" my Mum, December 2010! As agreed by me, my fiancee (quickwash) and my Dad.........as we have two Miele Commercial Little Giants.......and a Miele Condenser dryer! Not to mention the Miele Dishwasher and vented dryer to come in due course!!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

                  Interesting points, but 1)each purchasing case is different: if you live alone and use a washing machine once or twice a week I don`t think there`s alot of point spending big money on a machine or at least if or/and when it fails the parts might be obsolete to fix, ISE for example where they`ve ceased production. Then the next issue is what make of cheaper machine to buy as there`s no point buying just any new make just because it is cheap. Cheap `off beat named makes/branded` machines` usually equals expensive parts relative to the cost of the appliance or even no parts availability, go ask a Pro-Action owner! 2) buying expensive can mean elusive and exclusive and expensive parts and service, Smeg owners know that as do V-ZUG and Miele owners. 3)just because a machine costs 1000 doesn`t mean that the p.c.b won`t go wrong, only takes a pissy small triac to fail and your stuffed for a potential 350 repair charge. A Russell Hobbs 250 machine`s p.c.b is a direct swop over with no programming required and costs around 40 the argument is which out of the two examples is likely to fail and the answer is ....that there is no answer!
                  If you buy a well known cheaper brand costing 300 and the drum bearings fail after 5 years and you have to have a new tank unit, around 140 for the sealed tank unit, you can make an easy choice whether to bother or not. If your 800/1000 machine goes South, and you can`t fix it yourself, you could be looking at a 400+ repair bill so your no better off but what you are is also trapped: too expensive to scrap too expensive to get repaired and what else is just around the corner, new motor brushes at 55 a pair, a new belt at 40+.
                  Green Issues: it was never the intention to make a washing machine that was truely green repairable, by that, relative to how much the thing cost relative to a low service rate. The real Green Agenda was to creat a new industry that disposes of disposable goods by processing them back into raw materials with a ready source, a never ending source feeding the recycling industry.
                  If the industry really wanted to change, which it doesn`t, what you do is make a machine where even modern 21st Century man, who`s pretty hopeless, could repair himself cheaply should the need arise or you go the complete opposite and have machines that are sold as genuinely disposable and are sealed and retail for 120. Now there`s the choice, a choice the industry and repair industry gripe about, a repair industry dying.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

                    This is all really interesting. I've learnt a lot from reading the articles on here. So, I now want 6kg load and 1200 spin.
                    My washing machine is still working, a Zanussi bought in 1991. We're about to get a new kitchen and I have been persuaded to change to an integrated washing machine.
                    After reading all this, what brands should I be looking at if I have a hope of it lasting longer than 3-4 years? We are two adults and a 3 year old. I guess we do maybe 4-5 loads a week on average.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

                      Funnily enough I was talking about that today.

                      The conversation was along the lines of...

                      Me: "What integrated washer would you recommend given the current trend to sealed tubs, a few years of life etc?"

                      Other: "Err, yeah, now you mention it, none really."

                      Me: "Yeah, right pain to swap out after a few years even if you can still get a replacement kitchen door. Probably best to just tell people to save the money and buy a freestanding machine."

                      From that, I hope you get the point.

                      About the only one that's likely to last a decent amount of time now, so you don't have all the hassle is a Miele but, that comes at a cost up front and if it breaks.

                      K.
                      "Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge" Don Henley

                      Cheap appliance spare parts in our store ? Find an appliance repair company here

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

                        Oh! Bugger!! From that are you saying that integrated are even more likely to break than freestanding or is it just that they're so much harder to physically replace? We have designed the kitchen to have a solid bank of floor to ceiling units that will include the washing machine, integrated fridge/freezer (that we're also struggling to choose) and eye level cooker. There isn't anywhere else in the kitchen that a washing machine could go....

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

                          No.

                          Integrated machines are often just the same internals for the most part at least as the freestanding counterparts so, have the same baggage.

                          They are no better built. They are no more durable.

                          When you do have to swap it out though, it's a huge heap more hassle.

                          Integrated refrigeration, Liebherr, install it properly per the instructions in respect to ventilation especially and it'll last. Pretty much anything else, all bets are off.

                          K.
                          "Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge" Don Henley

                          Cheap appliance spare parts in our store ? Find an appliance repair company here

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

                            Thank you so much for your time. We really would like to keep the line of the wall of units. Looking at the Miele integrated washing machine - is there a reason they don't seem to do one fully integrated? And cor blimey they are so much more expensive! But, if it lasts 20 years then it would be worth it. Failing being able to swallow the cost now, and wanting to keep the nice clean line of units, what would you say would be the least worse of the rest?

                            Looking at Liebherr fridges now - again ouchy price but ooooh, nice fridges

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

                              But, if it lasts 20 years then it would be worth it.
                              Hi

                              Not a real chance. When it does go wrong it will cost an arm and leg and probably a couple of extra toes.

                              If you do buy the Miele then buy when they have there 10yr warranty promotion.

                              Bryan
                              http://www.ffrservices.co.uk http://www.pandoserviceuk.co.uk

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: The Great Washing Machine Swindle ?

                                Originally posted by tiggerwendy
                                What would you say would be the least worse of the rest?
                                Currently the Bosch WIS28441GB. Comes with a 2 yrs guarantee (can be extended to 5 and can be installed by the likes of John Lewis - avoid Currys or weep)

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